Lots of Surprises in ACC
The Duke Blue Devils are hot. The Virginia Tech Hokies are not. Those are the only constants, as the conference season heats up. What a wild ride it's been so far in the conference. The Blue Devils are the only undefeated team in conference play and except for a narrow 77-75 win over Virginia Tech at the beginning of the season, the Blue Devils have been virtually untouchable in conference with their only loss coming against Georgetown two weeks ago.
But the story in the ACC might not be what's going on at the top of the conference, but rather it's what's happening in the middle that appears the most intriguing. Boston College, Florida State, North Carolina, and Miami are all 3-3 in the conference, with each team having played each other at least once.
I admit I was wrong about Boston College and Miami. Heading into their first season in the conference, no one, including me, gave either team a chance to compete in arguably the most competitive conference in the country. But they have so far. Given that both teams came from a weaker conference in the Big East (yes, the Big East was a weaker conference, but not anymore), the battle for last place in the conference appeared inevitable.
But to my surprise, both have fared extremely well in the conference. As it stands now, Boston College has an inside track to steal one the conference's NCAA tournament bids. As far as the other three teams in the equation, let's be serious. Before the season started, no one gave North Carolina even a fighter's chance of making back to the Final Four. While I'm not saying they have their tickets Indianapolis, but they'll be one of the 65 teams in the tournament. Florida State and Miami, however — not happening.
Big East Blunders
It's seems like this happens every year. You know, the Big East has a great team that is undefeated and manages to become ranked in top 10. We've all seen it before with Pittsburgh a couple of years ago and now this year with Pittsburgh and Villanova. It boggles my mind how Big East teams continue to be more overrated year after year. Both Pittsburgh and Villanova began the season undefeated, both powering their way to the top 10. But what's the use? We've all know the script. Each team will finish with maybe five or six losses and then get bounced in the second round of tournament.
Granted, the Big East is a tougher conference this year with the additions Louisville, Marquette, DePaul, and Cincinnati, making the Big East another one of those sought-after Super Conferences. But let's be serious (there's that word again), Connecticut is the only school in the conference that has shot of doing anything spectacular in the tournament. While people in Philadelphia might have flashbacks of 1985, let me borrow a phrase from the great philosopher Rick Pitino. "Ed Pinckney is not coming through that door, folks."
Knockout in Knoxville?
Of course not, but what the heck is wrong with Tennessee Lady Volunteers? I mean, two losses in the same week. That's not Pat Summit basketball. Of course, one of those losses came against No. 1 Duke. But losing to Kentucky, that's not Pat Summit basketball. A loss in the conference this early in the season, that's not Pat Summit basketball.
Let's dissect this, shall we? The Lady Volunteers have one of the nation's best players in Candace Parker and maybe Kentucky is a good team. After all, the Lady Wildcats are 15-4 and in fourth place in the conference. But honestly, Rupp Arena hasn't seen much in the way of great women's basketball, so I guess Kentucky was overdue for some success. But again, that wasn't Pat Summit basketball. Pat Summit basketball is going 34-1 or 35-0 en route to at least — at least — a birth in the title game. Pat Summit teams don't lose two straight games. That just doesn't happen. The Lady Vols better get their act together because the SEC is tough — really tough.
Scheduling Gone Horribly Wrong?
Year after year, it's the same story. Mid-major schools padding their schedules with superior teams hoping to gain some added exposure for their respective schools. What's the point? It never happens. Sure, Hampton University beat Iowa State in the first round of the 2001 NCAA tournament, a matchup of the No. 2 and No. 15 seeds. Yeah, the image of Hampton players picking up their coach, as he kicked his legs in the air, was priceless. So was the image of Bryce Drew diving on the floor in celebration of hitting the biggest shot of his life.
But seriously (there's that word again), these things rarely happen in the regular season. What's the use of a school such as the University of Maryland Eastern Shore, a Mid-Eastern Athletic Conference (MEAC), playing a school like Illinois early in the season? The smaller school isn't getting exposure for getting drubbed by the more powerful school. It just doesn't make any sense. It's pointless.
Here's an example — Morgan State (another MEAC school) is currently 0-17. Sure, they're terrible, but the bulk of their losses came at the beginning of the season against superior teams such as Washington, Florida, Miami, and Virginia Tech. By the time conference play started, they were already 0-11. That's not fair to the players. Sure, it's an experience that they can tell their grandchildren about. But it's got to be crushing for these kids, knowing they're getting on a plane or bus, traveling thousands of miles, just to lose — and lose badly.
This doesn't make sense and the NCAA should step in and do something about it. Force these schools to schedule non-conference games against teams where the games will be competitive. One game against a major school is enough. The players get the experience and you get to test your program against the nation's elite. But nine or 10 games are road kill, simply road kill.
January 30, 2006
Kevin Beane:
The teams/games you are talking about aren’t mid-majors but low majors. They schedule the games because they need the money that scheduling the heavies engenders. Without that, a lot of minor sports at these schools would go bellyup. The kids get a chance to knock off Goliath (and it does happen - see North Dakota State following a loss to Utah Valley State with a win at Wisconsin), and the big team gets a tune-up. Finally, right off the top of my head, Loyola Marymount, Kent, and Gonzaga have all made it to the Elite 8 as mid-majors in the last 15 years just right off the top of my head, and too many to count have made the sweet 16s. A lot those wins wouldn’t be possible if they didn’t have regular season experience against the heavies or a chance to pick up an at-large bid (which is greatly assisted by a tough non-conf schedule). As few at-large bids as mid-majors receive now, they would never receive any if the rule you suggest were put in place. So there’s about five reasons why such games do far more good than harm.
January 30, 2006
Billy Fortescue:
the fact that you didnt think that BC was going to be good shows that you have your head in the sand regarding the big east. wait till they win the ACC tourney from all the experience they have in those conference tilts at MSG….. ACC is so overrated its scary. If UConn is only Big East chance with a shot of winning, then please admit that is one more team than has a chance out of the ACC. I mean your best teams (NC State, Duke, etc…) are losing to middle of the pack Big East Clubs….
January 30, 2006
Tom Buggy:
“We’ve all know the script. Each team will finish with maybe five or six losses and then get bounced in the second round of tournament. “
What? West Virginia went to the Final 8, and Villanova to the Sweet 16 and within a disputed call of going further.
January 30, 2006
Joe:
Andre,
Nice try but this article is a joke. Two Big East teams have won 2 of the last 3 Nat’l Championships with ‘Cuse and Syracuse. The Big East is the best conference hands down. Every game is a dog fight and the league is well balanced. The top BE teams in the tournament will certainly be ready to take on anybody. WVA can be inconsistant at times, but Beilien is a great x and 0 coach and they can beat anybody when they’re hot. ‘Nova— two words: Randy Foye. G’town is also a force to be reckoned with and they are only getting better- can we say Princeton on steroids? Even mediocre Seton Hall beat up on N.C. State by 20 @ N.C. State! You’re right UCONN is awesome. Super-talented at every position, but I wouldn’t hold your breathe…
January 30, 2006
Sean:
Agree with Joe…nothing about the big east is a blunder. Andre, your love for the ACC is obvious, but you don’t seem to know much outside of that. Did you see BC play the past couple years? How could you not think they would be good?
West Virginia is also undefeated in Conference play…a feat much greater than Duke being undefeated in a weaker ACC. This article is just comical…I guess I’m to blame for justifying this article with a response.
January 30, 2006
Jeff:
Wow Andre,
You must not get cable, because you can’t have been watching the same basketball games as the rest of the country.
Also you convieniently forgot to note that the top two ACC teams both lost to middle of the pack Big East teams.
January 31, 2006
Jay:
Andre,
Your blood must be Carolina blue with an ACC drip.
Face up to some reality in college basketball.
1. There is much more parity now than ever before.
2. The actual RPI ratings are a tool to help us determine who is the better conference but, they are not perfect by any means. It doesn’t take into consideration the “OAGN” factor. (On Any Given Night).
3. If you didn’t see BC coming into the ACC as a good team, you are really out of touch.
4. The Big East made a pretty good showing in the tournament last year with WV surprising a lot of folks. Oh, and about that VU-UNC game, Curtis Sumpter of Villanove, their second leading scorer, was hurt before the UNC game and was replaced with a guy with two bad knees, 7 operations under his belt and PLAYING WITH A BROKEN HAND and yet, they did a “fade” by losing to UNC by a point.
4. A lot of people would say that Pittsburgh does a tournament choke….I would agree.. A lot used to say that about Syracuse and Maryland as well.
5. The Big East is not a tougher conference because of the expansion. It was a tough league if it remained untaltered! All the newer teams are struggling in the Big East!!!!!
6. Here’s what I see….4 Acc teams are in the top 25 right now…Duke was beat by middle-of-the-pack Georgetown, NC State was embarassed by expected-not-to-make-the-Big-East tournament St Johns, Maryland is going in the wrong direction and BC is an imported Big East team. By the way, BC is another one of those fade teams. They are the second best team in the ACC but, they are a fade team.
6. Why don’t you rewrite your article with your eyes open.
January 31, 2006
Jeff:
Everyone here apparently bleeds Big East colors, right? People keep saying how the ACC best lost to a middle-of-the-pack Big East team (ie Duke to Georgetown and NC State to SHU) but lest we forget that the #1 team in the nation UConn had their loss to a middle-of-the-pack Big East team in Marquette, and that game was a blowout.
I’ll admit that the ACC is weak this year outside of Durham and Chestnut Hill (by the way, Boston College is an ACC team now, so stop pretending like they count as Big East, commenters. It seems, though, that all the time Big East fans defend a lackluster performance by their top teams against a middle-of-the-pack Big East team as a dogfight and that it means that every team in the conference is good.
West Virginia is undefeated in Big East play, but out of their six wins in conference, only two of them have been by more than seven points, including a four-point win at South Florida and a five-point win at St. John’s. I’m not about to put Duke on a pedestal as being phenomenal for being undefeated in the ACC, but WVU lost to Marshall recently, remember?
Let’s look at Villanova now: A very good team that has struggled mightily recently in conference play including a three-point win over South Florida, a two-point win over Notre Dame, and a six-point win over Louisville (who I think everyone will agree actually IS overrated).
Now, I’m not about to say that the ACC is the best conference in the country, the Big East probably is. It’s hard, though, to not have some good teams when you have 16 to choose from.
February 1, 2006
Kevin Beane:
Jeff,
It’s kind of amusing that in comparing the Big East to the ACC, that top-tier ACC teams losing to middling BE teams is rendered less meaningful by pointing out that BE top-tier teams have losses and close wins in INTERCONFERENCE play. Thanks for making the Big East proponents point for them.
B) There’s really not such a huge difference between 16 teams and 12. Try again, hoss.
February 1, 2006
Jeff:
Kevin,
I was wondering how does it render it less meaningful that they’re interconference now? What difference does it make? I wasn’t claiming the ACC was better than the Big East, I was just saying that by you people saying that the top team in the ACC is worse than the top team in the BE is ridiculous because the top team in the BE lost to a team with a worse record than the top team in the ACC. You’re saying it doesn’t matter as much because it’s interconference, ok. Is that because the teams know each other better and are thus better prepared to play them? Ok, that makes sense.
Let’s look at the teams I used as examples…
Villanova’s closer games: Notre Dame, fine they’re BE, so let’s just strike that one from the comment. USF and Louisville were C-USA last season, so how is your point valid there?
West Virgina’s close games mentioned include a four-point win at USF (see above about C-USA).
UConn (arguably the best team in the BE) lost to Marquette, which is another BE team. Wait, Marquette was C-USA last season as well. Now, how is a loss to a middle-of-the-pack team in conference more meaningful than a loss to a middle-of-the-pack team out of conference if said teams in conference weren’t in the conference before? I would like you to elaborate on that, and that is EXACTLY how I didn’t make the Big East proponents point for them, my friend.
Good teams in the Big East right now: UConn, Villanova, West Virginia, Pitt(maybe?), Georgetown, and possibly Marquette. Syracuse and Louisville don’t deserve to be in that thought right now. Now, good teams in the ACC right now: Duke, and BC. NC State, I’ll agree doesn’t deserve to be in that thought, either. Now, Kevin, do the math, that’s 6 for the Big East and 2 for the ACC, a difference of four. Wow, there are also four more teams in the Big East than in the ACC. Coincidence? Not quite.
Try again, hoss.
February 1, 2006
Kevin Beane:
“Now, Kevin, do the math, that’s 6 for the Big East and 2 for the ACC, a difference of four. Wow, there are also four more teams in the Big East than in the ACC. Coincidence? Not quite.
“
That logic makes absolutely no sense at all. If the Big East lost their minds and added Florida Atlantic and Marist, they wouldn’t magically jump up to having eight “good” teams” compared to the ACC’s two.
I’ll put it another way: You say there’s six good Big East teams out of 16. So 37.5% of the BE’s teams are good. You say there’s two good ACC teams, out of 12. So 16.6% of the ACC’s teams are elite, or less than half the % of elite Big East teams. If it’s unfair to compare the ACC to the Big East because of a great discrepancy in the number of teams, those percentages would back your point. Instead they do the opposite. So again, thanks for making the Big East’s talking points for them.
Also, at what point to the new teams of the Big East get credit for being Big East members? You seem to put an awful lot of stock in the fact that they Marquette and USF are new to the conference. Marquette (and everyone else new to the BE with the exception of USF) already had a premiere basketball program with recent histories of going deep into the NCAA tourney before joining the Big East.
As crazy as this sounds, I think that one of the best ways to compare the strengths of one conference vs. another is to look at what happens….WHEN THEY PLAY EACH OTHER, rather than when they play within their own conference and trying to extrapolate things based on that. Again, it’s nuts, I know.
February 1, 2006
Kevin Beane:
(I forgot DePaul, who doesn’t have a recent hoops supremacy history).
February 1, 2006
Jeff:
Kevin I understand what you’re saying in terms of being in conference, and I’m with everyone here that agrees that the Big East is much better than the ACC this season. The thing is, though, that you can’t try and say that it’s harder for WVU to be undefeated in the BE than it is for Duke to be undefeated in the ACC because of who the teams have played. Sure, WVU is undefeated, but they have yet to play Pitt, Georgetown, and UConn.
Saying that the cream of the ACC crop is worse than the cream of the BE crop is valid except for Duke. People seem to be discounting Duke because they lost to a “middle-of-the-pack” team in Georgetown who is 15-4 right now yet they conveniently forget that UConn lost to a “middle-of-the-pack” team in Marquette by a lot more, and Marquette is 15-6. I’m not an ACC fan, I’m a Duke fan, so I hate most of the ACC, and it just bothered me when people were ready to crown everyone in the Big East standings above Cincinnati as being better than Duke, which is preposterous.
I was just pointing out that sometimes people are biased towards the Big East, too (though it doesn’t seem to apply this season). People say that when a top Big East team loses to a lower BE team it’s because the entire conference is good and it’s not because the top teams aren’t as good as we originally thought. This isn’t just a Big East thing, either, it happens in all the major conferences. So, enfin, my commenting was more based on defending Duke as opposed to defending the ACC, because I loathe UNC and Maryland, and strongly dislike GT, and Wake so I love seeing the ACC be down this year outside of Duke.
February 1, 2006
Kevin Beane:
Well I, for one, suspect that Duke is the best team in either conference, or the nation. It’s hard to go undefeated. There’s a lot of parity in the nation right now, and really freaky things can happen when team A is “on” and team B is “off” (Witness Duke needing a miracle to beat VT at home and N. Dakota State over Wisconsin). So I am not reading too much into Duke’s loss to GTown (at least not as much as Seton Hall blowing out NCSU in Raleigh).
February 1, 2006
Andre Watson:
Thanks to all that commented on my story. It’s about time I stirred some people up. While you all make valid points. But I also wanted to rebutal some of your arguments.
No.1 I’m not saying it’s a bad idea for big time school’s to play mid-major schools. I’m just saying it’s not fair for a smaller school to play that type of schedule in the beginning of a season and then find themselves with nine or ten losses before conference play even starts. My suggestion is (which I should have said in the story) have more games like the ACC-Big Ten Challenge, the bigger schools can use those games for their “Tune-Up” games. One or two games against a smaller school is fine, but to flood the schedule is not fair to the smaller schools. And I understand the money on the line and all that, but that doesn’t make it right. ANd I never discounted the effect that the Hampton’s and Loyola Marymount’s have had on the NCAA Tournament. BUt again, that the TOURNAMENT and not the regular season.
2. And I never said the ACC was going to have six or seven teams in the tournament. All I said was that for the past couple of years, the Big East has had schools that have started off very well, 12, 13-0 and when it came tournament time did nothing. That’s all. I was wrong to say that the league stinks, but it appears to be the same story with them year after year.